What would you do if... - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

obastable · May 23, 2011, 06:51 AM // 06:51

EULA and ToS are only binding on points that conform to law, and by "law" I mean whatever your local/state/provincial/federal/whatever laws are. While the agreement says its governed by the state of California (I think, could be wrong), if you (like me) live somewhere outside of California the company also has to respect the laws of where you live. Why? Because they've sold their product there, and by making their product available to you they must abide by the local consumer protection laws.

Re: The OP. This happened to my hubby during the anniversary event, he was mistakenly banned for botting because he's a rather efficient cupcake RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. He politely emailed, pointed out precisely why he wasn't a bot, instructed them to review their logs, then waited ... 10 hours later he was unbanned & received an apology from support for the mistake. Don't get angry with them, don't rant, don't bitch. If you were honestly "mistaken" for a bot you should have some measure of proof in your favor to help remedy the situation.

AngelWJedi · May 23, 2011, 07:19 AM // 07:19

same i got banned by mistake they thought i was a gold seller, took them roughly 2 1/2 to 3 days to get my account back to me. i said bide your time and if you dont get it back move on.

gremlin · May 23, 2011, 07:27 AM // 07:27

I suppose when it comes to the EULA etc they have to obey all local laws where they sell the game and follow reasonable business practice otherwise they could legally cancel every account 5 minutes after you install the game.

So they don't have to give the account user a reason for cancellation but would have to justify it to officialdom should they be asked.
This is extremely unlikely to happen because they banned players would have to organise themselves and get it all on record at some international level.

Serves us right I suppose for signing the EULA which lets face it we never read, I couldn't begin to count the number of times I have ticked a box that says yes I agree.
Lots of people returning the game to the store upon reading the EULA might cause a change over time but again that is unlikely to happen.

TheGizzy · May 23, 2011, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

I suppose when it comes to the EULA etc they have to obey all local laws where they sell the game and follow reasonable business practice otherwise they could legally cancel every account 5 minutes after you install the game.

Technically, they could cancel every account 5 minutes after you install the game, for the simple reason that ownership of the account and all related data remains theirs.

When you buy the game, you are paying for an access key (and a box, etc. if you didn't just buy a digital CD key). As long as you are able to register that access key - they have provided exactly what they promised, and only what they promised. That access key is immediately worthless once you have registered it. You never, at any time, have any sort of legal ownership interest in the account you use - that is NOT what they have sold you, no matter what country you are in.

This is one consideration a gaming company has when they are determining where to market their product (and where to allow access from). Some countries do not permit the sale of strictly access keys in this manner... GW cannot sell their game in or to those markets.

Matirion Maeronta · May 23, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

Technically, they could cancel every account 5 minutes after you install the game, for the simple reason that ownership of the account and all related data remains theirs.

This may not be true depending on where you live. To be more precise, it might even be illegal for ANET to claim this in some places.
No matter what the EULA tells you, it is still bound by the law of the country/state the product is sold in.

In example: Dutch law states that something is a service and property of a company (in this case ANET) if continued payment is required to continue the service provided by said company (ie. monthly fees).
As you do not have periodic payments, it is not a service you bought but a product. A product and all attached directly to it is the customers property (this includes the account, character and items in this case). This right can be signed away by a legal document though. However, the EULA and ToS are not legal documents according to dutch law unless signed by hand or with proper authorisation (ie. by using a signature code, as some companies do). Simply checking a box and clicking I Accept will not suffice, you can not prove person A clicked it and that it wasn't person B who did.
This would make blocking accounts identical to theft or scamming from a legal perspective and if they simply claim it is their property, it might be seen as an attempt to scam someone out of his/her property (this goes to the extreme though).
Although legal actions aren't taken against things like that (most of the time), it is possible (but more trouble than it is worth).

If they refuse to abide by local laws then it may result in them not being allowed to sell their products anymore in that location and/or any other penalty the local law states is appropriate.

gremlin · May 23, 2011, 11:58 AM // 11:58

I know in the UK there are basic statutary rights that apply no matter what a company states.
Usually this protects you against faulty goods and may indeed extend a manufacturers warranty over and above what they state.
Have used these in the past where a company wanted me to return an item to Germany for repair, in the end they dealt with the return and gave me a replacement.

Never read though all the pages to see what might apply in this case.
I think the best advice the OP has received so far is to politely point out their mistake though if they have already stated they will ignore all future emails it may be too late.

Never found them other than helpeful when I have had problems

majoho · May 23, 2011, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Stop this nonsense EULA vs the law discussion already, the EULA is not a legal document and it doesn't have to be - it's an agreement to gain access to the SERVER.

They can deny you access to the server if you don't follow the rules or for whatever reason they want.

The best you could ever get from trying to go to court with something like this is a refund.

Aeronwen · May 23, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The perma ban on Spacko's account really cannot be contested. But the fact that they disallowed his handle before they disallowed Vagina or Dyke, does call their priorities into question.

As for the Harvey Keitel, guess which name got banned (as per Guru rules, this was a team name gimmick designed specifically because we knew we were going to be on obs mode, pulled from obs mode, and none of these character names exist anymore [at least to us]).

I am even more confused now. I looked up some things on google but I cannot understand this. Why would any of those names get banned? Why does anyone make a name they think might be offensive?

Urcscumug · May 23, 2011, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Stop this nonsense EULA vs the law discussion already, the EULA is not a legal document and it doesn't have to be - it's an agreement to gain access to the SERVER. They can deny you access to the server if you don't follow the rules or for whatever reason they want.

It's not that simple.

1) As long as you, as a consumer, payed money to a business, you are entitled to something in return. The moment they take that something away from you, there are consumer protection laws and organizations (at least in Europe, at least in some countries) that will force them to issue a refund. Period. You don't have what you payed for, you get your money back. The business is subject to very hefty fines and even banning their products or services from being sold in that country if they don't comply.

2) Access to the server is usually treated as a completely separate issue. But it is considered access to a service that the business provides. And here's the punchline: in many European countries a business is not allowed to deny service to people randomly, without a good reason and proof. If NCSoft is unwilling or unable to prove why they deny access, they would be forced to re-enable the account (subject, again, to fines etc.)

If NCSoft thinks they are owed damages, that's a completely different matter. It would be up to them to open a civil suit against the consumer, if they want.

Bottom line, the consumer protection laws in Europe really take the side of the consumer seriously. The American take on this subject is very lax by comparison, they mostly allow any business to do whatever it wants and it's up to the consumer to sue them to get anywhere. But as Perpetua Gale shows above, you can achieve this even in a country which doesn't technically have consumer protection laws per se, by leveraging bad publicity and other methods. A sensible business is very likely to just issue a refund and call it a day rather than complicate matters.

And this is only about very basic consumer rights, without getting into whether the agreement even constitutes a legal contract according to local law.

PS: There might be some wiggle room if you bought the stuff online from their website, or from the online store, but for the boxes that you bought or ordered from a store inside your country (or if the stuff meets the local definition of "product" as opposed to "service"), they are automatically bound by local laws.

As a personal advice: be polite, persistent, and argument your case. Don't even hint at the word "lawsuit" unless you really really mean it (and if you do, it should be your lawyer writing the complaint, not you); the moment you do, tech support/public relations forwards everything to the legal department and doesn't touch it anymore. And legal will then have to start determining what kind of a problem your case really is and handle it with two-foot sticks, which complicates and delays everything. This applies to any company anywhere, not just in America; but since in America most often your only real recourse is a lawsuit, far too many people tend to abuse threatening with one.

RedDog91 · May 23, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matirion Maeronta

As you do not have periodic payments, it is not a service you bought but a product. A product and all attached directly to it is the customers property (this includes the account, character and items in this case)

Not true. The product you paid for was the access code (plus the discs and manual if you bought a boxed copy). You do not own anything but what you paid for, the account and everything on it is owned by ArenaNet. The access code just allows you to "borrow" it from them and they can stop "lending" it to you whenever they want.

Iuris · May 23, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

I'm not exactly sure that would quite fly.

While the EULA is generally binding (otherwise we'd have no grounds on which to use the game at all), I think some provisions are worded too vaguely. Especially the "for any reason whatsoever" bits. Read as is, declare void since it'd allow them to sell nothing at all, or (I think the most likely option) try to determine the intent and apply it as a set of guidelines for application of the text? Who knows.

(purely practical concerns like battling Anet legally from across the world, the amount of money needed etc.)

Urcscumug · May 23, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I think it's time the OP came back with some more details, at least what country he's in, whether he did something that might be taken as botting, did he talk nicely to NCSoft support etc. Otherwise we get all fired up on pure speculation.

**cosyfiep** · May 23, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28

botting me???? I can barely do anything more than 2 times in a roll on any character....(on different characters --ok)....I would say they got the wrong person and politely inform them of that...(and I rarely solo anything--dont know many bots that take heroes with them)....and hope that smarter gm's can see this.

if not....then I guess I would say sayonara to gw and go back to reading books and watching anime (not getting gw2 if they did this to me on gw1)

ruk1a · May 23, 2011, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeronwen

I am even more confused now. I looked up some things on google but I cannot understand this. Why would any of those names get banned? Why does anyone make a name they think might be offensive?

mr white from james bond movies I guess? don't see how that is offensive though..

Matirion Maeronta · May 24, 2011, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Not true. The product you paid for was the access code (plus the discs and manual if you bought a boxed copy). You do not own anything but what you paid for, the account and everything on it is owned by ArenaNet. The access code just allows you to "borrow" it from them and they can stop "lending" it to you whenever they want.

What I said was assuming the dutch laws, not american law or laws from any other country. According to dutch law, unless you pay periodically, you own everything connected to it unless stated on purchase (must be clearly visible on the box). Even when clearly stated on the box (not the case for guildwars), a refund must be paid if the company would claim it back.
The access key is connected to the account, as well as everything on the account and the access to the servers (server access can be dropped if it is not locally supported at all anymore, this would not require a refund). By dutch laws, you would own these things too.

If the company would be unable to reinstate the account and can provide proof and a proper reason for it (ie. severe disrupting activity, such as harassment), they would still need to refund the account and the assumed value of everything on it. The assumed value is based off of the market value of an item, in the case of GW that would be the RMT value, despite that being against the rules of GW, as it is the only indication and it is a "legally valid" market.
Once again, this was all assuming the dutch laws.

Swingline · May 24, 2011, 09:16 AM // 09:16

If you are truly innocent then I would give them hell until they actually look into the matter. Assuming you are innocent it's 1 of 2 things...

1) A mistake.

I'm not sure how the banning process works but it could be from human or computer(which is still human error technically) error. If the banning process involves more than 1 person than its more likely a mistake will be made. Your best bet is to talk to Gaile and keep badgering them until someone finally looks into it. You may get your account back.

2) You pissed someone off in the game who is buddies with a GM

I learned this one from playing a Nexon game. There is no hope unless you hire lawyers and get serious which is silly unless your account is worth thousands of dollars/euros and you put years of work into it.

NCsoft has many problems with issues like this. People get banned all the time for nothing. Your best bet is to probably cut your losses and find a new game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruk1a

mr white from james bond movies I guess? don't see how that is offensive though..

They probably see it as white supremacist type name which is just ridiculous given the name is just mr. white.

Laylat · May 24, 2011, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Apparently, what I would do if the OP's situation happened to me warrants a post delete.

Denim · May 24, 2011, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

It becomes legal when you accept the terms (by clicking "I have read and agree to the Terms and Conditions"). As soon as you click that, it becomes a written statement that you have agreed to follow any rules/conditions/results...

Ya, in a sense the company is making a new law. Cuz to have things different, one must go to court...not likely. They can also enforce their law..banning..etc..

About them doing something against established law, like illegal discrimination.. not a chance.

May 23, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28	#33
cosyfiep are we there yet? Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: in a land far far away Guild: guild? I am supposed to have a guild? Profession: Rt/	botting me???? I can barely do anything more than 2 times in a roll on any character....(on different characters --ok)....I would say they got the wrong person and politely inform them of that...(and I rarely solo anything--dont know many bots that take heroes with them)....and hope that smarter gm's can see this. if not....then I guess I would say sayonara to gw and go back to reading books and watching anime (not getting gw2 if they did this to me on gw1) __________________ where is the 'all you can eat' cookie bar?

May 23, 2011, 06:51 AM // 06:51	#21
obastable Krytan Explorer Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: Mo/	EULA and ToS are only binding on points that conform to law, and by "law" I mean whatever your local/state/provincial/federal/whatever laws are. While the agreement says its governed by the state of California (I think, could be wrong), if you (like me) live somewhere outside of California the company also has to respect the laws of where you live. Why? Because they've sold their product there, and by making their product available to you they must abide by the local consumer protection laws. Re: The OP. This happened to my hubby during the anniversary event, he was mistakenly banned for botting because he's a rather efficient cupcake RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. He politely emailed, pointed out precisely why he wasn't a bot, instructed them to review their logs, then waited ... 10 hours later he was unbanned & received an apology from support for the mistake. Don't get angry with them, don't rant, don't bitch. If you were honestly "mistaken" for a bot you should have some measure of proof in your favor to help remedy the situation.

May 23, 2011, 07:19 AM // 07:19	#22
AngelWJedi Furnace Stoker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: orlando,florida Guild: Society of Souls [Argh] Profession: Rt/E	same i got banned by mistake they thought i was a gold seller, took them roughly 2 1/2 to 3 days to get my account back to me. i said bide your time and if you dont get it back move on.

May 23, 2011, 07:27 AM // 07:27	#23
gremlin Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2006 Guild: GWAR Profession: Me/Mo	I suppose when it comes to the EULA etc they have to obey all local laws where they sell the game and follow reasonable business practice otherwise they could legally cancel every account 5 minutes after you install the game. So they don't have to give the account user a reason for cancellation but would have to justify it to officialdom should they be asked. This is extremely unlikely to happen because they banned players would have to organise themselves and get it all on record at some international level. Serves us right I suppose for signing the EULA which lets face it we never read, I couldn't begin to count the number of times I have ticked a box that says yes I agree. Lots of people returning the game to the store upon reading the EULA might cause a change over time but again that is unlikely to happen.

May 23, 2011, 11:58 AM // 11:58	#26
gremlin Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2006 Guild: GWAR Profession: Me/Mo	I know in the UK there are basic statutary rights that apply no matter what a company states. Usually this protects you against faulty goods and may indeed extend a manufacturers warranty over and above what they state. Have used these in the past where a company wanted me to return an item to Germany for repair, in the end they dealt with the return and gave me a replacement. Never read though all the pages to see what might apply in this case. I think the best advice the OP has received so far is to politely point out their mistake though if they have already stated they will ignore all future emails it may be too late. Never found them other than helpeful when I have had problems

May 23, 2011, 12:36 PM // 12:36	#27
majoho Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Denmark	Stop this nonsense EULA vs the law discussion already, the EULA is not a legal document and it doesn't have to be - it's an agreement to gain access to the SERVER. They can deny you access to the server if you don't follow the rules or for whatever reason they want. The best you could ever get from trying to go to court with something like this is a refund.

May 23, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06	#31
Iuris Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Crazy ducks from the Forest Profession: W/	I'm not exactly sure that would quite fly. While the EULA is generally binding (otherwise we'd have no grounds on which to use the game at all), I think some provisions are worded too vaguely. Especially the "for any reason whatsoever" bits. Read as is, declare void since it'd allow them to sell nothing at all, or (I think the most likely option) try to determine the intent and apply it as a set of guidelines for application of the text? Who knows. (purely practical concerns like battling Anet legally from across the world, the amount of money needed etc.)

May 23, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19	#32
Urcscumug Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jan 2011 Guild: UNO Profession: W/	I think it's time the OP came back with some more details, at least what country he's in, whether he did something that might be taken as botting, did he talk nicely to NCSoft support etc. Otherwise we get all fired up on pure speculation.

May 24, 2011, 09:30 AM // 09:30	#37
Laylat Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Oct 2006 Profession: E/	Apparently, what I would do if the OP's situation happened to me warrants a post delete.